DISQUS

The Colorado Independent: In Defense of Larry Craig

  • Quit Stalling · 2 years ago
    Even crediting your professed "ambivalence," your defense is weak First, in contrast to your reporting, he did NOT plead guilty to interfering with privacy, but only to disorderly conduct......as least as reported by the MSN.  Please confirm which account is true.  If your account is false, please apologize for spreading false information that could easily have been refuted.


    Second, you may be right that "the crime he was arrested for ought not be a crime."  But that is not his actual defense.  Rather, based on his past and current pronouncements, he wholeheartedly agrees that gay sex, or soliciting gay sex, in a men's room should be a crime.  Instead, he denies engaging in the conduct that constitutes the crime.  Shouldn't that affect your defense of him?  HINT:  the applicable word rhymes with chypocrisy.


    Does your defense still stand?

  • Intentions Or Acts · 2 years ago
    He didn't HAVE to have Sex! Dan,


    Sorry.  No manual will be forthcoming.  There is no manual. 


    As one who writes in the public sphere about private matters, you should appreciate what I have to say.


    Senator Craig's act of soliciting sex was nothing more than a private act, but it was done in a public place.  That's what makes it wrong. 


    There is nothing wrong about sex between consenting adults.  But, sex is normally conducted in private places, such as bedrooms, bars (initially), on the Internet, or within the confines of one's associates and friends.  This doesn't matter if you are gay or straight or if you don't know the difference, as is apparently the case with Sen. Craig of Idaho.


    It's ironic that a public servant, emphasis on public, chooses to risk his reputation by soliciting sex in a public place, such as in the bathroom stall at the Minneapolis airport.  This is the "ick" factor that Mike Jones was so critically assaulted for.  But Jones' sexual acts with Rev. Haggard were conducted privately, not publicly. 


    Nobody should care about private acts, but certain gay PhD's ( that's "professional homosexuals of Denver") like to blame Jones for the loss of the Domestic Partnership referendum last year.  In fact, Jones' coming out and revelations actually helped the Democrats wrestle control from the Republicans. 


    So, don't feel bad about wasting your youth rehearsing pickup lines and gathering the nerve to approach a likely candidate for a liaison.  I'm guessing that it was done within the confines of an appropriate spot, like a bar, or at a private party, or under a shady tree at college. 


    Gays - including the closet case, Sen. Craig - don't have quite that luxury, and they resort to bathroom liaisons.  Craig is an un-healthy gay man, but you'll never convince him of that. 

  • Dan Whipple · 2 years ago
    Crime and punishment According to the court documents, which are referenced on the "his $575" button, he pled guilty to both charges mentioned. And Craig wasn't charged with hypocrisy by the court, either. So he didn't defend himself from that. In fact, he made no defense at all. He pled guilty. You're free to charge him with hypocrisy if you want, though. I won't try to stop you.
  • Dan Whipple · 2 years ago
    Thanks Thanks for the comment. I was looking forward to the advice, though. Dang.
  • Quit Stalling · 2 years ago
    Wrong. Read again, if you can The court document you reference clearly states that, although he was charged with both crimes, he pleaded guilty to only disorderly conduct.  My gosh, given your defiance, you think that you would actually read the short document closely.  Guess not.


    As to your defense, I didn't understand that you were offering a legal defense to the charges themselves.  (Actually, Dan dearest, the court didn't charge him with anything.  The prosecutor did that.  I know, facts may be a small point to you.)  So, you were offering a defense only to the crime with which he was convicted?.....even though, as you said, he offered no defense?  And your defense is that, even though he performed the facts alleged (remember, he admitted them in court), those facts shouldn't constitute a crime. Fair enough.  You are probably right.  But, again, he offered no such defense.


    But, the more reasonable interpretation of your initial post was a defense of Craig in the political arena, wherein hyprocrisy is relevant.  I apologize for not understanding that you presented a purely legal argument (which was easy to do considering your apparent inabillity to comprehend a 3-page court document of the simplest variety).

  • Quit Stalling · 2 years ago
    The Dems already had control of the state house before Mike Jones. Thus, his story didn't cause the Dems to gain such control.  And surely Mike Jones and Ted Haggard had nothing to do with the national Dems taking control of Congress in 2006.  Do you contend otherwise?
  • Former Russet · 2 years ago
    No crime to enjoy some humor Sheesh, I appreciate the nitpicking but get out of the hardshell and allow yourself to explore the idea of humor. Whipple's not a complete idiot - ithis is a funny take on a serious issue. On the other hand, soliciting sex in a public place is a crime. I don't want someone taking the wide stance when I'm in the stall next door.

    Sen. Craig set this karmic exercise in motion years ago. Now its payback time for all the people his Puritan/Mormon policies have harmed over the years.
  • Dan Whipple · 2 years ago
    Thanks, I think "Not a complete idiot." That's the nicest thing anybody's said to me all day.
  • za · 2 years ago
    Sooooooooooooooooo ..........you're saying what the good Senator plead guilty to was to "fidget with his fingers" and "tapped his toes several times" ????


    Why on EARTH would he plead guilty to fidgeting with his fingers (underneath the stall-wall, mind you), and tapping his toes?  Makes no sense.  Would YOU have plead guilty to this (remember, the charge was "disorderly conduct"  What specific "conduct" WAS the good Senator pleading guilty to?


    Also, you conveniently left out that the good Senator stared into the door crack of the police officer's stall for one to two MINUTES.  Other stalls were open, so it wasn't to check to see if that one was open.


    He rubbed his foot against the police officer's foot.  Another point you left out.  He also claimed to be "picking up a bit of paper" with his hand.  The police officer states in his official writeup that there WAS NO PAPER THERE.


    I'm not even gonna go into this "wide stance" garbage.


    And why on EARTH would the good Senator keep something so trivial and INNOCENT from his own family?


    A third-grader could come up with better denial's than the good Senator has.  Hell, even Alberto Gonzales could.


    I urge you to go and read the ENTIRE police report.  You obviously haven't

  • Ralph · 2 years ago
    Here's the deal... If you are gay, just be gay.  Go out and hook up.  I don't care.  In fact, I think it's beautiful.  Just don't do it in men's rooms.  Go home and enjoy your own bedroom.
  • ocdemocrat · 2 years ago
    SOOOOOOOOOO BY:  You are such a meanie.  Rebutting Whipples defense of  Craig and telling him to try to  accurately read the article.  He read the article as most of these sickies on the Republican side read articles:  picking what is good for them, and forgetting the other 80% of the article that refutes  their "cherry picked" points.

      Another point:  When Kane wrote in the Wash Post on Tuesday, he mentioned that Lavvy was married and had 3 grown children.  Sounds very hetro to me.  However, Kane forgot to mention that the "children" are from his wife's former marriage, and carry none of his DNA!  They are NOT his biological children!  OOOOPS!!.

      To Whipple:  WAAAAAAAAAAAAA  WAAAAAAAAAA  Haaaaaa!!

  • califdem · 2 years ago
    Here is how it works... There are a number of websites that discuss the in's and 'out's' of public sex, cruisingforsex DOT com comes to mind. Have a read through that and you will see that, had Sen Craig known of this website, he might have stood a better chance of soliciting a willing participant (not that that justifies this lewd behavior), who would not have arrested him.
  • BigOrange310 · 2 years ago
    Move to Minneapolis a propos of nothing, is life so good in Minneapolis that the cops have nothing better to do than hang around the men's room waiting to be solicited for sex?
  • Wendy Norris · 2 years ago
    I know it's teeny tiny but... this post is tagged "humor" and "opinion."


    It's NOT a serious refutation of Sen. Craig's behavior, for the record.

  • XXX · 2 years ago
    All together now Fact is, he was obviously soliciting sex.  I have never wtinessed or heard of such actions men's bathrooms in my 40 years, until this story.  No one talks to you in the next stall over unless it's your buddy or to say something like "your killin' me," not exactly a pick up line. 


    Craig is a hypocite of the worst kind and should be skewered with the likes of Haggard and Foley. 


    Whether or not it's a crime or should be a crime is a whole different debate.  I think the State being able to prosecte on those facts is more dangerous and offensive than any pass made at me in a bathroom.  A slippery slope for sure. 

  • Wendy Norris · 2 years ago
    apparently this restroom is hook-up heaven Our sister site, Minnesota Monitor, has been covering this story here and here.


    Because the Minneapolis/St Paul airport is a major international thoroughfare to the western US and hub for Northwest Airlines, there's a lot of passenger traffic. Apparently, the public restroom in question -- which I'm told is fairly secluded -- has a reputation for being a cruising location. That's why it was being staked out by the airport police.

  • Mark Centz · 2 years ago
    caught in his own trap If these acts are illegal, it is because of people like Craig who passed the laws to make them so. It is only right for him to suffer the consequences he helped to create for many, many others without the power to change those laws. He deserves everything he's getting. He certainly wouldn't have spoken in your defense had the circumstances been reversed. That speaks well for you, but I'm going to say I disagree with you today.
  • GOP4ever · 2 years ago
    Shoddy! Wow!  Talk about letting the facts get in the way of a good story!  Try reading the police reports before spreading such crap.  The 4th estate is dead or just too effing lazy to actually do investigating.


    Besides that, HE PLEAD GUILTY.

  • rustyaustin · 2 years ago
    Wide Stance I hate to bring this up, but anyone who has ever worn pants knows that the only way to have a wide stance while defecating is to either take them all the way off, or leave them all the way on. Otherwise the waistband restricts the stance to something quite a bit less than wide. I'm guessing the Senator had them off.


    It feels great to see another scumbag lying douchebag get his due, and pound one more nail into the republican party coffin. I pray this guy runs in 2008.


    The harder they come, the harder they fall, one and all...

  • Wendy Norris · 2 years ago
    once again, with feeling This is a satirical opinion piece.


    It's not a serious defense of Sen. Craig's behavior.


    I completely understand your outrage at how the media missed this story -- see this analysis at our sister site, Minnesota Monitor.com -- but that's not a bone to pick here.

  • Wendy Norris · 2 years ago
    ick That's not a mental image I really needed. But thanks for offering up a new theory.
  • craigslust · 2 years ago
    Here's the Manual you requested Context and History


    From TPM Reader TB ...

      Dear Editors (here specifically David, and Josh):

      Fine coverage, as always. I very much enjoy and appreciate your site.

      Regarding Larry Craig's bathroom actions and American public sex in general: there are two comments I'd like to add to the discussion. First, male-male sex in public bathrooms has been going on in America for at least 100 years...probably since the invention of the public bathroom. Our culture's lack of understanding of sexuality, and our gender-segregated bathrooms, created an environment where males naturally happen upon each other in stages of undress (much like the locker room). Such scandalous behavior has been uncovered at YMCAs (originally built as boarding houses for World War I soldiers), park restrooms, and transit station restrooms since the early 20th century. Typically, men who had sex with each other in these restrooms were caught by plainclothes investigators who pretended to accept their suitors' advances (and, in some cases, were quite passionate about their ... investigations) before booking them. Long prison terms, psychiatric "treatment", and public humiliation were common outcomes of these investigations. For most of the 20th century, there were very, very few public places in most of America for men to meet each other. There was certainly no public space friendlier to gays in Boise, Idaho, than the library and park bathrooms when Sen. Craig was a young man. I call them preliminaries because they preface more intricate coded behavior that can indicate a variety of things: whose stall the contact will happen; what activities are amenable to either party; whether money will change hands; whether there is a lookout; whether the place itself is safe; and much more. "Tearooms," as these bathrooms are called, established an entire non-verbal dialectic to facilitate sexual union between American men. They are as enshrined in gay culture as Sunday afternoon "tea dances," or Bette Midler singing at the baths, or Stonewall, or, currently, Internet dating. Even for me, as a young gay man from Wisconsin curious about gay sex in the mid-1980s, the park restrooms were the place where it all happened. The restrooms were not just an urban legend: they were living history -- noisy, confusing, heady, stinky, and nervewracking places for a sexual -- and cultural -- initiation. The codes that Craig and his arresting officer used (looking through the stall door; tapping one's foot; touching your stall neighbor's foot) are historical preliminaries to sexual contact.

      Which leads me to this: we do not live in the 1930s anymore, or even the 1980s. One can make the distinction now between furtive behavior and discreet behavior. There are lots of ways by which and places where men can meet other men to wine, dine, kiss, screw, get married, or just civilly unionize. It doesn't have to happen in the bathroom, unless that is what you choose. I feel some fondness for tearooms, where men would look at me, then just 18, like I was Ganymede come back to earth. There is an excitement and danger and kink to public sex that I still enjoy, in empty cemeteries on moonless nights with someone I like, offending only the dead. There are so many ways to meet someone and approximate the thrill of the tearooms. We could say that Sen. Craig was just unimaginative, or wouldn't have it any other way; I think he hadn't caught up with the ways gay culture has changed, and he didn't know how.

      But it's never too late: if I were him, I'd be on Craig's list with a crotch shot and a "married, discreet" tag.


    --Josh Marshall

  • Wendy Norris · 2 years ago
    fascinating analysis Thanks for sharing this insight.
  • a big fat burro · 2 years ago
    it is possible to point out errors or differences of opinion without being a complete @$$hole, you know.
  • rdgille · 2 years ago
    Ron Thank God the man that Craig did not hit upon was neither Afro American or Mexican! 
  • Quit Stallin · 2 years ago
    When you have to explain to everyone that this is allegedly a satirical piece. ....that's surefire evidence that the piece is poorly done.  Not just anyone can do satire well.  It takes some skill.  The author should stick to simpler things (e.g., to-do lists, phone messages, etc.).  Also, doesn't the poor guy have a competent editor?
  • Steve Boese · 2 years ago
    When Craig stands with us, I'll defend him too I'm with you to the extent that the low bar being set for the charges, and the entrapment preceding them, make me queasy.


    But, among all of the guys who have found themselves in similar circumstances to his in June, Larry Craig was better equipped than most to stand up for himself and make his own case. He had the option to take the lead in June by making a public statement of the facts which allegedly contradicted the officer's report; he had the option to make the case that fidgeting in a bathroom should not be grounds for criminal charges, and the entrapment method was excessive.


    He's in an understandably tough spot.


    But, when push came to shove, he (a) hid from his family and the public, (b) used Clinton-esque denials, evading personal responsibility, (c) blamed the media, and (d) protested that he's not one of those gay men, inferring that they're the awful ones having sex in the bathrooms.


    I empathize with him, but I don't trust the guy. I cant help suspecting that he would throw all men who have sex with men under a bus right now if it would save his political hide.

  • Quit Stallin · 2 years ago
    Really? Too bad this possibility eludes you. ...keep tryin, tho
  • Socrates · 2 years ago
    Funny, all this talk.... ....about Craig, when "it was just about sex," and no story at all about how Udall has been taking illegal campaign contributions from fugitive felon Hsu (just like Hillary). 


    Hmmmm.  Interesting.

  • Quit Stallin · 2 years ago
    LOL! I liked your post, especially your last line.  Finally, some worthwhile humor, as well as interesting information.
  • Johnathan · 2 years ago
    This entire episode is simply... beautiful. And to think his "sponsor" in rehab is Mark Foley.  The only additional development that could add to the hilarity of this situation is if Haggard (he of the meth/male prostitute fame) joined them for a threesome at rehab.


    Beautiful.  Absolutely beautiful.


    Can you picture the exchange in rehab?


    Sen. Craig:  "Hey Mark, what say we hit the local airport?"


    Foley:  "Airport?  Screw that.  Let's go find us a boys dorm room."


    Haggard:  "You think they'll have any meth?"


    Family Values, meet the Three Stooges.

  • pookapooka · 2 years ago
    maybe you should try another thread.  This one happens to be about Craig.  Q E Duh
  • billjpa · 2 years ago
    citizen dear dan- either you are just trying to provoke folks into a dialog or you are an ignorant fool. This act on the part of SENATOR craig is not just foot rubbing or finger wiggling. So, dan- what are you?
      I believe that you are 1- a stinking rabble rouser and 2- an ignorant fool.

      Lets see- the sick individual is employed as only one of one hundred individuals whose job it is to RUN this country. Do you understand that? And- ya want ta know something?

      he wasn't looking for and adult- he was looking for a piece of YOUNG MEAT! And that makes him one sick bastard.

      Ya get it now? Don't buy the nonsense that he was looking for another man. The only thing stopping him is fear and ignorance. GET IT?
  • davewolfusa · 2 years ago
    You forgot ... the former President of the Young Republicans:


    Lets take some beer!

  • Que Ball · 2 years ago
    What??? The officer was responding to a complaint regarding the good senator's behavior.  He had no choice but to be there.  I'm sure he would have been much happier not being there.
  • Fedaykin · 2 years ago
    How to fidget and get sex Here's the guide you were asking for someone to post on how to tap your foot, fidget and get sex.


    http://www.squirt.or...

  • Que Ball · 2 years ago
    There is room for both stories... We're just people enjoying the down fall of another hypocrite.  So I guess you're just fine with this man continuing to serve in the senate.  It makes no differnce that he is breaking laws he's helping to create? 


    Oh, wait!  Look over here.  There's a Democrate that's doing something wrong...  (that's sarcastic - (oops! had to explain it.))


    There's more than enough room on the interent to deal with all of our law-maker's wrong doings...

  • JoshuasGrandma · 2 years ago
    Happy Feet I understand now that toe-tapping is a code!  So that's why Dobson and Medved were so sure that the movie 'Happy Feet' had gay undertones...and protested its G rating!


    That wasn't original with me - but it did make me laugh - the only thing that did in this pathetic episode.

  • tchristin · 2 years ago
    Come out of the closet I read the court documents and saw his signed confession in which he agreed he was guilty. They are posted all over the internet now and easy to find.


    He stared through the crack in the door into the cop's bathroom stall for at least 2 minutes, long enough that he identified his blue eyes. Come on!  He was quite obviously soliciting sex, which I could care less about if it wasn't for the blatant hypocrisy. 


    Basically, this is a very troubled man who is lying to himself and everyone else in his life.  It's pathetic.

  • Socrates · 2 years ago
    Maybe.... ...if there WAS a thread about it, I would talk about it there.  But since there is NOT, I was commenting on the absence of a thread on such a major story, compared to this one that is "just about sex," to borrow a phrase.


    If you don't like the commentary, tough.  But namecalling and personal disparagement won't change things.  It just shows that you have no substantive answer to the point being made.

  • Socrates · 2 years ago
    And your guess.... .....would be wrong.


    But don't let me stop you from entering baseless sarcasm and making strawman arguments.

  • Everybody Has One · 2 years ago
    I'll Be Wearing the Larry Craig Mask "There is an excitement and danger and kink to public sex that I still enjoy, in empty cemeteries on moonless nights..."


    Hope I bump into you at Mt. Olivet this Halloween!

  • Qbear · 2 years ago
    struck out....ouch You may have done the impossible....make Larry feel worse than he has this week, by pointing out to America, after all the career killing attention, the one thing he didn't get was sexual gratification.
  • sleeper cell · 2 years ago
    Nice post Great defense of Larry Craig. I like the reasoning and phooey on the grouse that wanted to turn it into a legal brief.  I think that individual must have been in an adjacent stall. Anyway good piece, made me chuckle out loud (hard to get me to do that).
  • Quit Stallin · 2 years ago
    If you read closely..... ....You would notice that it was Whipple who wished to characterize his post as a legal brief.  That was his excuse for ignoring Craig's hypocrisy.  But, having failed as a legal brief (or even a C+ news article), the latest spin is that the post is entirely satire.  Stay tuned for the newest spin....
  • a big fat burro · 2 years ago
    it is possible to point out errors or differences of opinion without being rude, condescending, insulting, and abrasive, you know. I would hope that in the future you would bear in mind that a small bit of courtesy in political discourse goes a long way.
  • floydmcc66 · 2 years ago
    It should be a crime? So what you're saying is that the public (and that is the only thing that matters here) should condone it by vilifying this man. Where is the gay community, they should be outraged!


    That's what so sick about this It always has to be about right left. Never about right wrong. This is just flat out wrong!


    Can't he sue on some constitutional grounds.

  • Floydmcc66 · 2 years ago
    You Pompous SOB! C'mon! who cares about this.  A simple sign would do...


    "No Sex in the restrooms, we monitor."

    "GET A ROOM!"


    If we could just quit being so uptight about small things.  last time I checked this was the twenty first century.  Treat people like adults and they just may respond as adults. 


    I wonder how much time the officer spends on this. I know we have better thing for them to do in our nations airports.


    If the Senator is gay or not gay really doesn't matter. That's his business.  If he was caught having sex in the bathroom then that would cross the line. Give him a ticket and publish it for public consumption. I think that's a good enough deterrent.


    We should let him know that we will forgive him if he votes to end the war. That would be the American thing to do.


    Peace.

  • Floydmcc66 · 2 years ago
    ???? You're just turning this into Stallgate.
  • razajac · 2 years ago
    Satire isn't satire isn't satiire Perhaps this piece is guilty of failing to fall into an established satirical subgenre.


    It's not "Onion-style" satire, and it's not excruciatingly fact-based "Only-the-Truth-Is-Funny" Rick Reynolds-type satire.  So the writer's crime is either not being nitty-picky fact-based, or not being outrageous enough to warrant his not being fact-based.